Does anyone know how to make WHITE dye? - Page 5 - Guild Wars Forums

Macel · Sep 15, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30

update: Silver is the exception to the rule about luminosity. Silver has a luminosity value of 160. Since silver itself has a color (thus a hue of 160 and saturation of 0), mixing it with yellow, for example, isn't going to just make it a brighter yellow, it's going to make it a brighter mixture of silver and yellow. What's interesting is luminosity doesnt seem to be averaged - ingame yellow has a luminosity of 120 and silver 160, averaging would result in a value of 140, but the resulting color actually has a luminosity of 150.. So we have a bit of a weighted average (not being much of a mathematician - instead of 280/2, its 280/1.87...

So whenever you want to find out what the resulting color is when mixing silver with anything, average the hue and saturation, and [add the luminosity, then divide result by 1.87]

kawaii_bat · Sep 15, 2005, 04:45 PM // 16:45

If you dye th elementalist forge armor black it turns out almost completely white.

Also even if you don'thave dyes on you can use dye remover to change the color of you armor.

Pretty funky wierd if you ask me.

Macel · Sep 15, 2005, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

the game doesn't take luminosity or hue into account. It simply averages out the RGB values.

Not entirely true. Now that I think about it, what you're saying is exactly the same as what Im saying. However, silver screws up the values if you try to just average intensities. Since the luminosity average is weighted, you get slightly different results.

Yellow:
Hue: 40
Saturation: 240
Luminosity: 120
R: 255
G: 255
B: 0

Silver:
Hue: 160
Saturation: 0
luminosity: 160
R: 170
G: 170
B: 170

In game result of mixing yellow and silver:
Hue: 40
Saturation: 119
Lum: 150
R: 207
G: 207
B: 112

Result of mixing yellow and silver if you just average the intensities:
Hue: 40
Saturation: 143
Lum: 140
R: 212
G: 212
B: 85

Macel · Sep 15, 2005, 04:57 PM // 16:57

anyways, all this really concludes is what one of the original posters says - applying silver to a base color brings you closer to white by increasing luminosity slightly, but not nearly enough to get you anywhere close to real white dye. I can't get at the game right now to see what happens when applying a color to itself, or dye remover to a color.. I'll do that tonight when I get the chance.. But by looking at the color combination YSSS, it looks like applying silver to itself does further increase the luminosity since that has a luminosity value of 165.

Edit: mixing black and silver seems to just give a direct average of the luminosity, which means that simply averaging the intensities works fine.. dunno what's going on there..

Algren Cole · Sep 15, 2005, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Macel, you get that result because silver isn't technically a color in this game. it's just a shade of white. They had to use luminosity to make the silver show up. Silver essentially acts as a brightener. Though I think you've already realized this. I believe we are getting at the same point. It's nice to see the numbers though. nice work, thank you for taking the time.

Macel · Sep 15, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51

I think it'd be pretty easy to write some code that generates a chart of all the possible color combinations... I'll see if I can throw something together.

Algren Cole · Sep 15, 2005, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macel

I think it'd be pretty easy to write some code that generates a chart of all the possible color combinations... I'll see if I can throw something together.

depending on the language you are writing it in(C, Basic, Delphi are my strongest compiler languages) you can throw it over at me when you're done to debug it.

Macel · Sep 15, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

It'll probably be a java applet since I know java's paint methods best.

Alpine_Frost · Sep 15, 2005, 07:13 PM // 19:13

I don't know why you guys are argueing over who is right about whether black is the absence of light, or white is the absence of color, yada-yada-yada. The truth is, both of those are right, and there are more right answers.
The way I see it, is There are 4 (if not more) types of colors that people have been discussing here, and they are all very different, and react differently to mixing.
1) Light color- color made by light, or the reflection of light. mixing light works way different than mixing dyes or paints. All light together makes white, and no light makes black.
2) Paint color- color made by different chemicals in a latex or oil base, holding the color in place. Any mixtures made here add to the saturation (i.e. Yellow + Blue = green, whereas Yellow light + Blue light does not yield green light).
3) Dye color- colors that are created by applying chemicals to naturally colored objects (i.e. wood, leather, steel, etc.) Different chemicals react differently to different base materials making different colors, for example, one chemical when applied to a leather might make it blue, but the same chemical applied to wood might make it green.
4) Computer color- this is where the RGB values come from, and is used because that is how the computer gets color to the screen. By changing the Red, Green, and Blue values of the RGB number you can get different colors. Hue and Saturation are inherent to those values.

So, no more argueing. Regardless of the different color types above, we still don't know exactly how the programmers programmed it in Guild Wars, but reading through the Thread and experimenting on my own, I would place my bets that they are adding RGB values, also taking into account the base color of an item, and material type (as in real-world dyeing)
But I would like other people's takes on this....

Macel · Sep 15, 2005, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpine_Frost

I don't know why you guys are argueing over who is right about whether black is the absence of light, or white is the absence of color, yada-yada-yada. The truth is, both of those are right, and there are more right answers.
The way I see it, is There are 4 (if not more) types of colors that people have been discussing here, and they are all very different, and react differently to mixing.
1) Light color- color made by light, or the reflection of light. mixing light works way different than mixing dyes or paints. All light together makes white, and no light makes black.
2) Paint color- color made by different chemicals in a latex or oil base, holding the color in place. Any mixtures made here add to the saturation (i.e. Yellow + Blue = green, whereas Yellow light + Blue light does not yield green light).
3) Dye color- colors that are created by applying chemicals to naturally colored objects (i.e. wood, leather, steel, etc.) Different chemicals react differently to different base materials making different colors, for example, one chemical when applied to a leather might make it blue, but the same chemical applied to wood might make it green.
4) Computer color- this is where the RGB values come from, and is used because that is how the computer gets color to the screen. By changing the Red, Green, and Blue values of the RGB number you can get different colors. Hue and Saturation are inherent to those values.

So, no more argueing. Regardless of the different color types above, we still don't know exactly how the programmers programmed it in Guild Wars, but reading through the Thread and experimenting on my own, I would place my bets that they are adding RGB values, also taking into account the base color of an item, and material type (as in real-world dyeing)
But I would like other people's takes on this....

That's exactly the conclusion that we came to. And yes, RGB monitors can be thought of as 'light' colors as opposed to paint colors. If you add green dye to blue dye in game, you won't get yellow, you'll get turquoise, which proves that dyes are on the RGB pallette.. Averaging the RGB intensity values between two different colors will give you the real result (in most cases - silver seems to be a special exception which I need to look into more), so we were discussing writing a simple program that spits out all the possible ingame color combinations, given all the starting colors, in a nice chart. As you mention, colors also have a luminosity which is the overall intensity of the light, which proportionally increases the intensity of each of the R, G , B values. Luminosity works on a scale from 0 to 140 A luminosity of 0 represents 'true' black, and 140 'true' white. The game's version of black isnt actually anywhere near black, but is a shade of grey with a luminosity of 85 and equal R, G, B values. When R, G, B intensities are equal you always get a shade of grey with the extreme ends being black and white. If you increase the R, G and B intensities you are increasing the luminosity. If you change the R, G and B intensities in different proportions, luminosity will become proportional to the color with the highest intensity, and the color will change.

Another interesting thing I noticed - the highest luminosity you can have any one OR two of the three base colors (R, G, B) at is 120 (halfway up the luminosity scale). After that, when you try to increase the luminosity, the third color starts increasing in intensity whether you like it or not. This gives the color the effect of becoming more and more washed out until it becomes white. All colors being equal, a luminosity of 120 produces 'perfect' grey. To create 'silver', you 'wash out' perfect grey by increasing the luminosity to 160.

Bohr Nal · Sep 15, 2005, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

uhm...I think the fact that for something to be dye it has to have a color coupled with the knowledge that white isn't a color is enough to put 1 and 1 together and realize that you can't make white.

White is a combination of all colors. It's demonstrated when you break apart light with a prism and the effect can be seen in a rainbow.

In terms of the game: His holyness, The Frog, confirmed that this is the way it is in Tyria also, when asked about white dye.

We can only mix 4 colors together in the containers, so has anyone tried applying each of these colors to the armor piece itself? If anyone wants to waste some dye, they could find out. I would do all the colors except for black first, 1) Because of it's price and 2) Because black is the absence of color.

Macel · Sep 15, 2005, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bohr Nal

White is a combination of all colors. It's demonstrated when you break apart light with a prism and the effect can be seen in a rainbow.

In terms of the game: His holyness, The Frog, confirmed that this is the way it is in Tyria also, when asked about white dye.

We can only mix 4 colors together in the containers, so has anyone tried applying each of these colors to the armor piece itself? If anyone wants to waste some dye, they could find out. I would do all the colors except for black first, 1) Because of it's price and 2) Because black is the absence of color.

I thought that applying a new color over an old one directly to armor just overwrote the old color.

Macel · Sep 15, 2005, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Now this is interesting... There is a difference between averaging the RGB intensities and the hue/sat/lum to get the result of mixing two colors.

Averaging the RGB intensities affects luminosity.

Averaging Hue/Sat/Lum doesnt affect luminosity unless the luminosity of the two colors being mixed are different.

I thought for a while that averaging hue/sat/lum might be equivalent to adding RGB intensities. Not so.

Red:
H: 0
S: 240
L: 120
R: 255
G: 0
B: 0

Green:
H: 80
S: 240
L: 120
R: 0
G: 255
B: 0

Blue:
H: 80
S: 240
L: 120
R: 0
G: 0
B: 255

Intensity adding:

R + G = Yellow
R: 255
G: 255
B: 0

Yellow + B = 'Pure White'
R: 255
G: 255
B: 255

Intensity Averaging:

(R1 + R2)/2, (G1 + G2)/2 = Puke Yellow
R: 127
G: 127
B: 0

Puke Yellow Avg w/ B = Purplish/Greyish Blue
R: 68
G: 68
B: 127

Hue/Sat/Lum Averaging:

Mixing Red w/ Green = Yellow
H: 40
S: 240
L: 120
R: 255
G: 255
B: 0

Mixing Yellow w/ Blue = Lime Green
H: 60
S: 240
L: 120
R: 128
G: 255
B: 0

Daegul Mistweaver · Sep 15, 2005, 09:36 PM // 21:36

If you want to know what the resulting mixed vial will look like, there's a handly program out there available here: gwonline . net / files . Problem is this tells you zip about what the result will be after said vial is applied to a given piece of equipment.

If I understood a bit more about the above post I might waste some time trying to come up with a matrix of how the base color of a given item(after application of dye remover) will interact with dye. That's a small chance though; a project of this nature would require considerably more in-game funds than I am likely to have access to at any given time.

Gardavil · Sep 16, 2005, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

To all of you asking how to make different colors: look at ghost147's link in this thread. It's the real deal.

Thanks Numa for pointing out Ghost147's post.

Thanks Ghost for the site link........this was exactly what i was looking for

Alpine_Frost · Sep 16, 2005, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daegul Mistweaver

If you want to know what the resulting mixed vial will look like, there's a handly program out there available here: gwonline . net / files . Problem is this tells you zip about what the result will be after said vial is applied to a given piece of equipment.

I tried downloading it and it seems as though the link is broken or the file is gone. Anyone here have the program?

Bohr Nal · Sep 17, 2005, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macel

I thought that applying a new color over an old one directly to armor just overwrote the old color.

I'm not exactly sure how it would be done if this were true. On my ele, I applied a silver then a black on each piece of 15k geomancers armor. I got silver trim and detail and after I applied the black, it wasn't black black. It was a little lighter. I would try the experiment on 15k armor. Maybe just a single piece of some stuff from ascalon or something. Maybe I'll break down and try it myself. I have the dye.

This is what the frog said when he was asked if they would start distributing white dye: "Is not white a mixture of all colors?"... That's it...lol. I don't know if that was Anet's idea of a cruel little joke or if it's completely true. If it's true, we can still only mix 4 dyes in a vial.

defdoggy · Sep 18, 2005, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daegul Mistweaver

If you want to know what the resulting mixed vial will look like, there's a handly program out there available here: gwonline . net / files . Problem is this tells you zip about what the result will be after said vial is applied to a given piece of equipment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpine_Frost

I tried downloading it and it seems as though the link is broken or the file is gone. Anyone here have the program?

I also tried to download the file and received "The page cannot be displayed".
Then I tried right clicking on the link to "Save File As..." and a dialog box came up stating the connection to the server had been reset.
Could someone PLEASE post the .zip files?!?! THANKS!!!!!!!!!

Alpine_Frost · Sep 19, 2005, 01:05 AM // 01:05

I wonder if they have taken it off the server because it really did have a virus in it. If you notice at the bottom of the description it says: "Please note that some virus checkers will read the file as a 'trojan dropper'. This is not the case.", sometimes that's a big red flag that there really is some malicious code in a program. You would think that if a programmer noticed that their program was coming up as a trojan, they would fix it. (you would think)

Alpine_Frost · Sep 20, 2005, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Well, I did some digging and found the Color program that was on gwonline. Since it is larger than the attachment limit, I put it on my server. ColorMix.zip
I scanned it and it checks out fine. and I haven't had any problems with it yet. It doesn't seem too accurate with complex mixtures, but it's a start, and he is still working on it.

Sep 15, 2005, 04:57 PM // 16:57	#84
Macel Academy Page Join Date: May 2005	anyways, all this really concludes is what one of the original posters says - applying silver to a base color brings you closer to white by increasing luminosity slightly, but not nearly enough to get you anywhere close to real white dye. I can't get at the game right now to see what happens when applying a color to itself, or dye remover to a color.. I'll do that tonight when I get the chance.. But by looking at the color combination YSSS, it looks like applying silver to itself does further increase the luminosity since that has a luminosity value of 165. Edit: mixing black and silver seems to just give a direct average of the luminosity, which means that simply averaging the intensities works fine.. dunno what's going on there.. Last edited by Macel; Sep 15, 2005 at 05:05 PM // 17:05..

Sep 15, 2005, 09:01 PM // 21:01	#93
Macel Academy Page Join Date: May 2005	. Now this is interesting... There is a difference between averaging the RGB intensities and the hue/sat/lum to get the result of mixing two colors. Averaging the RGB intensities affects luminosity. Averaging Hue/Sat/Lum doesnt affect luminosity unless the luminosity of the two colors being mixed are different. I thought for a while that averaging hue/sat/lum might be equivalent to adding RGB intensities. Not so. Red: H: 0 S: 240 L: 120 R: 255 G: 0 B: 0 Green: H: 80 S: 240 L: 120 R: 0 G: 255 B: 0 Blue: H: 80 S: 240 L: 120 R: 0 G: 0 B: 255 Intensity adding: R + G = Yellow R: 255 G: 255 B: 0 Yellow + B = 'Pure White' R: 255 G: 255 B: 255 Intensity Averaging: (R1 + R2)/2, (G1 + G2)/2 = Puke Yellow R: 127 G: 127 B: 0 Puke Yellow Avg w/ B = Purplish/Greyish Blue R: 68 G: 68 B: 127 Hue/Sat/Lum Averaging: Mixing Red w/ Green = Yellow H: 40 S: 240 L: 120 R: 255 G: 255 B: 0 Mixing Yellow w/ Blue = Lime Green H: 60 S: 240 L: 120 R: 128 G: 255 B: 0

Sep 15, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30	#81
Macel Academy Page Join Date: May 2005	update: Silver is the exception to the rule about luminosity. Silver has a luminosity value of 160. Since silver itself has a color (thus a hue of 160 and saturation of 0), mixing it with yellow, for example, isn't going to just make it a brighter yellow, it's going to make it a brighter mixture of silver and yellow. What's interesting is luminosity doesnt seem to be averaged - ingame yellow has a luminosity of 120 and silver 160, averaging would result in a value of 140, but the resulting color actually has a luminosity of 150.. So we have a bit of a weighted average (not being much of a mathematician - instead of 280/2, its 280/1.87... So whenever you want to find out what the resulting color is when mixing silver with anything, average the hue and saturation, and [add the luminosity, then divide result by 1.87]

Sep 15, 2005, 04:45 PM // 16:45	#82
kawaii_bat Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Canada, Gatineau Guild: None Profession: Mo/R	If you dye th elementalist forge armor black it turns out almost completely white. Also even if you don'thave dyes on you can use dye remover to change the color of you armor. Pretty funky wierd if you ask me.

Sep 15, 2005, 05:20 PM // 17:20	#85
Algren Cole Banned Join Date: Jun 2005	Macel, you get that result because silver isn't technically a color in this game. it's just a shade of white. They had to use luminosity to make the silver show up. Silver essentially acts as a brightener. Though I think you've already realized this. I believe we are getting at the same point. It's nice to see the numbers though. nice work, thank you for taking the time.

Sep 15, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51	#86
Macel Academy Page Join Date: May 2005	I think it'd be pretty easy to write some code that generates a chart of all the possible color combinations... I'll see if I can throw something together.

Sep 15, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01	#88
Macel Academy Page Join Date: May 2005	It'll probably be a java applet since I know java's paint methods best.

Sep 15, 2005, 07:13 PM // 19:13	#89
Alpine_Frost Pre-Searing Cadet Join Date: Sep 2005 Profession: E/Mo	I don't know why you guys are argueing over who is right about whether black is the absence of light, or white is the absence of color, yada-yada-yada. The truth is, both of those are right, and there are more right answers. The way I see it, is There are 4 (if not more) types of colors that people have been discussing here, and they are all very different, and react differently to mixing. 1) Light color- color made by light, or the reflection of light. mixing light works way different than mixing dyes or paints. All light together makes white, and no light makes black. 2) Paint color- color made by different chemicals in a latex or oil base, holding the color in place. Any mixtures made here add to the saturation (i.e. Yellow + Blue = green, whereas Yellow light + Blue light does not yield green light). 3) Dye color- colors that are created by applying chemicals to naturally colored objects (i.e. wood, leather, steel, etc.) Different chemicals react differently to different base materials making different colors, for example, one chemical when applied to a leather might make it blue, but the same chemical applied to wood might make it green. 4) Computer color- this is where the RGB values come from, and is used because that is how the computer gets color to the screen. By changing the Red, Green, and Blue values of the RGB number you can get different colors. Hue and Saturation are inherent to those values. So, no more argueing. Regardless of the different color types above, we still don't know exactly how the programmers programmed it in Guild Wars, but reading through the Thread and experimenting on my own, I would place my bets that they are adding RGB values, also taking into account the base color of an item, and material type (as in real-world dyeing) But I would like other people's takes on this....

Sep 15, 2005, 09:36 PM // 21:36	#94
Daegul Mistweaver Krytan Explorer Join Date: Aug 2005 Guild: The Incredible Edible Bookah [YUM] Profession: W/N	If you want to know what the resulting mixed vial will look like, there's a handly program out there available here: gwonline . net / files . Problem is this tells you zip about what the result will be after said vial is applied to a given piece of equipment. If I understood a bit more about the above post I might waste some time trying to come up with a matrix of how the base color of a given item(after application of dye remover) will interact with dye. That's a small chance though; a project of this nature would require considerably more in-game funds than I am likely to have access to at any given time.

Sep 19, 2005, 01:05 AM // 01:05	#99
Alpine_Frost Pre-Searing Cadet Join Date: Sep 2005 Profession: E/Mo	I wonder if they have taken it off the server because it really did have a virus in it. If you notice at the bottom of the description it says: "Please note that some virus checkers will read the file as a 'trojan dropper'. This is not the case.", sometimes that's a big red flag that there really is some malicious code in a program. You would think that if a programmer noticed that their program was coming up as a trojan, they would fix it. (you would think)

Sep 20, 2005, 12:12 PM // 12:12	#100
Alpine_Frost Pre-Searing Cadet Join Date: Sep 2005 Profession: E/Mo	Well, I did some digging and found the Color program that was on gwonline. Since it is larger than the attachment limit, I put it on my server. ColorMix.zip I scanned it and it checks out fine. and I haven't had any problems with it yet. It doesn't seem too accurate with complex mixtures, but it's a start, and he is still working on it.